Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997

To: ken-wilber-l@listserv.azstarnet.com

From: Thomas.Jordan@redcap.econ.gu.se

Subject: Dialogue

Dialogue - another attempt from the man in the Ivory Tower

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Mr. L.L.: There is so much suffering in the world, and the few who try to do something about it are applying the wrong medicines. We wilberries ought to make some kind of contribution to social change. After all, don’t we agree that the Boddhisattva ideal of universal compassion is central to spirituality? I suggest writing a post-conventional manifesto. [Blah-blah, blah-blah]

Ms. U.L.: [silence]

LL: Well, why aren’t you responding?

UL: I’m fed up with puffed-up men trying to impress others with their big words. You talk about world-improvement, but I think your real motivation is just showing off. The best thing you can do is work with yourself. Your self-important pomposity only proves your lack of contact with real life. Climb down from your ivory tower and take a look at how much time you spend listening to your children instead, it would do you good.

As long as you haven’t freed yourself from your wish to save the world, you are bound to do more harm than good.

LL: Of course it is essential to heal one’s own hurts, meditate, and so on. But people are dying out there. And even if I have not attained an ego-less state, I think I can contribute to realization of some virtues ascribed to the rational and centauric states of mind. A rational world is at least far better than a mythic-rational. (If you don’t understand what I mean, see Wilber’s discussion in chapter 5 and 6 of S.E.S.) Besides, there is a lot to learn about oneself in engaging with the outside world as well, if you approach social activism with openness to self-transformation. If you only sit in your meditation chamber, you’ll never have to face your own prejudices.

UL: You can’t *do* anything to save the world. The world is suffering from too much agency, *that’s* where the problem is. As long as you are addicted to agency, you are a part of the problem, not of the solution. Go home and meditate. You can’t change the world, you can only transform yourself. I hate to say this, but the world is perfect as it is. Things are perfectly alright as they are, it is all natural. You are upset about suffering, but this stems from your own state of mind. We encounter those experiences we need.

LL: No wonder the USA has a far higher crime rate, a higher number of really poor, and more vicious conflicts around race, gender and sexual orientation than most European countries. You Americans only care about your own comfort. It is easy for you to sit in your nice home and meditate, you have always access to the privilege of not having to bother. No wonder those who have to fight for survival or with discrimination are becoming increasingly nasty.

I get both angry and sad when the American spiritualists say the world is perfect as it is. Is that your answer to the woman living in an owercrowded refugee camp with too little food, because she didn’t want to be raped one more time by soldiers plundering her home area? I accuse you of being insensitive to inequality and suffering, of being self-centred, of being embedded in an American tradition of individualism that contributes to the continuation of very palpable suffering. The American government has repeatedly supported corrupt regimes and unjust wars and fails to give adequate support to those trying to alleviate the suffering, e.g. the UN refugee programs. You are implicated in this guilt by declaring your non-involvement. Talk about separate egos! <pant, pant>

UL: You are unbearable. If someone doesn’t kick this self-addicted lunatic from this list, I’m gonna leave.

LL: Why not make use of some of your supposed spirituality in your communication with me? I feel angry and disappointed. I don’t have the feeling that my concerns have been heard. I can’t listen to your critique of my way of being until I feel you have listened to me. I am angry, and I want you to deal with my angriness in an exemplary way, according to your spiritual outlook. What is a good way to deal with anger?

UL: Your angriness is not my problem. If you have expectations about getting attention or certain kinds of responses on this list, go deal with that yourself! I have had enough of men insisting on having the attention of everyone else, just because they are so damned preoccupied with their own precious egos.

LL: We are missing an opportunity if we don’t deal with this. So you are too irritated to give me unconditional attention, and I have the same problem. But I’ll make a try. First I’m going to try to listen to you, then I’m going to try express myself.

When you see yet another post by a man about an abstract topic and using an academic language, do you get angry because you would like to talk to people who are really present as feeling human beings, about topics that are connected to real, daily life, in a normal conversational style that doesn’t make use of a language only a limited number of people have access to? Do you believe that my approach is keeping my attention from the most important matter, self-transformation, and therefore does more harm than good? Would you like me to relate in a more direct and personal way? Would you like me to show more concern about my own issues?

UL: OK, you are at least making an effort. But can’t you see you are still speaking in a way that looks like you are following some manual for communication, written for socially disabled scientists? I’m a person, not an object for communication techniques.

LL: Well, I’m doing my best. If my style is still a nuisance, I can only ask you to point out how you react to it, then I’ll get a chance to learn.

But now I want you to listen to me:

When you say that we shouldn’t try to reform the world, but keep our attention to our own individual transformation, I get angry, disappointed and sad, because I attach a great importance to solidarity with the people around the world who are suffering. I get disappointed and angry because I had hoped that people interested in spirituality would be more concerned with compassionate action in the social arena than others, and I can’t detect any such compassion in what you are saying. I get disappointed also because I am yearning for finding like-minded people, people who share my concerns and some parts of my worldview, but have repeatedly failed to find a resonance. I want a lot of things from you:

- I want you to make it possible for me to learn something about my limitations, e.g. by telling me what you find irritating or oppressing in what I say.
- I want you to be clear about how men oppress women in conversations.
- I want you to take on the challenge of learning from difference by staying with it.
- I want you to show me how you care about the plight of the disadvantaged.
- I want you to consider the possibility that you might be embedded in a typical American perspective, and that you are unwilling to consider if there might be merits in reexamining your perspective.
- I want you to tell me how you think we could constructively deal with upcoming irritation, anger, rejection on this list.